Ep 38: Have We Got the Moderation Trend All Wrong?

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Why do we drink what we do? Why do some drinks become classics while others languish at the back of the drinks cabinet? [00:00:11] Speaker B: Is it just because we prefer those drinks? Or are there underlying economic, social or technological trends that shape our choices? [00:00:19] Speaker A: And that's what we're going to explore on A Question of Drinks. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Join us as we explore the hidden side of the drinks cabinet, the decisions, reversals and underlying forces that shape the beverage market. I'm Luli Halstead. [00:00:32] Speaker A: And I'm Felicity Carter. And together we host A Question of Drinks. Luli, it's been a while. What have you been up to? [00:00:43] Speaker B: I had a very lovely visit to the us thank you very much, Felicity. For my son's wedding, of course. Plenty of work going on, but, Felicity, you've been quite quiet recently. What have you been up to? [00:00:55] Speaker A: I've been taking long train journeys and getting. Getting a lot of reading done, including public health research. I've been reading all sorts of papers and what I'm reading has made me think we have misunderstood something fundamental about moderation. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Okay. So firstly, that tells us something about your preferred choice of reading material, which, if I might say, is quite niche. But second, that's rather a bold way to kick us off, Felicity. So you're going to have to back that statement up. [00:01:24] Speaker A: Well, I'm actually doing a course through the University of Stirling at the moment on the evils of alcohol. I should report back about that. Yes. Let's talk about moderation. So we tend to talk about moderation as what people do instead of having fun. Right. So the idea is you're going out and you'd like to have that third glass, but you're being good and so you don't have it. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. To be fair, I guess that's the way most of us would interpret moderation. [00:01:51] Speaker A: But there's growing evidence that for at least some people, particularly younger people, it's the sense of being in control that is itself part of the pleasure. [00:02:01] Speaker B: But surely the pleasure is what the control gives you. So the. Like, the. The no hangover, the. The better sleep and. And I guess, kind of feeling vaguely smug the next morning. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Look, I'm sure it is and that. But the interesting bit is. So public health researchers are interested in what social role alcohol plays or doesn't play in the life of particularly young people. [00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker A: And what they're finding, not everywhere, not every country, but. But certainly in some of the Anglophone countries, is it's the act of choosing not to drink or strictly limiting what you drink. That's actually part of the pleasure. So people are really, really valuing the feeling of being in control in the moment. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Yes, but isn't there an enormous hole in that because people kind of still really like getting drunk. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Yes, they do, and we'll get onto that because there's a real paradox there that's worth talking about. [00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I wonder whether there's something kind of even more interesting going on. So, based on what you've just said, what if moderation isn't actually making our drinking more moderate? What if it's making it more extreme? So by that I mean kind of more occasions where we don't drink at all, but still occasions where we kind of really go for it. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Okay, so thank you for giving away the end of the episode, Luli. That is actually an excellent hypothesis which we should get into. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So as if we planned it, Felicity, that leads us into today's question. So have we misunderstood moderation? And what does that mean for what ends up in our glass? [00:03:37] Speaker A: I will point out that it's two questions. [00:03:40] Speaker B: It is. Who's counting? Other than you, apparently. Anyway, so can I kick us off and start in my happy place with some numbers? Numbers, please. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Of course. As I know it makes you happy. [00:03:52] Speaker B: It does. So. Thank you. So somewhere between 62 and 64%. So let's say two thirds of alcohol consumers now say they're moderating, and that's according to NIQ and iwsr. And they see similar numbers. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah, And. And what's interesting is that it's young people that are the forefront of that. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Yes, it is. They are. So around three quarters of Gen Z and Millennial drink, they are moderating. And again, that's against that 2/3 of gen X and just over a half of boomers. So just to clarify, when I'm talking about the data here, this data is talking about people who are already consumers of alcohol, and if they're trying to moderate that sort of alcohol consumption, I [00:04:40] Speaker A: must say, speaking as a Gen X, I'm surprised that two thirds of Gen X are moderating. But anyway, so this. This is kind of. This is kind of the, you know, where the we get the Gen Z has given up drinking headlines. [00:04:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Except they haven't entirely. So I'll come back to that. But for now. For now, for now, the point is that they're drinking and moderating kind of at the same time. [00:05:04] Speaker A: Yes. So wellness is a big part of this. So the Wine Market Council found a quarter of us, Gen Z have changed how much or what they drink to help their Mood, sleep or energy. For boomers, It's a mere 5%. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah, not very many of them. Although not everyone got the memo about this one. Felicity. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Ah, this sounds like the intro to a story. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Go on. It is. Okay, so I was at Twickenham Stadium, home of English rugby, for my birthday recently. [00:05:33] Speaker A: Happy birthday, Luli. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Thank you. So we were there to see red roses versus black ferns. For those that don't know, that's England versus New Zealand with about another 60,000 people. And we had hospitality tickets. We really spoiled ourselves because it was my birthday, which included a bottomless brunch. So there was Prosecco, wine, cocktails and beer. Now it was lunchtime, pre match, so we were trying to pace ourselves a little bit. [00:06:02] Speaker A: You know, that sounds amazingly generous for this day and age. So what was the quality of the drinks like? Do you know? [00:06:08] Speaker B: Actually there were two different cocktails they had, both of which were actually pretty good. A selection of beer on taps. And the white wine, which I would describe as kind of perfectly crowd pleaser, was a Bordeaux Blanc. So no complaints from our table. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Okay, so were you pacing yourself? [00:06:30] Speaker B: Yes, I was, but that leads nicely into my observations of the people on the table next to us. So on the next table there were two couples, I guess they were in kind of like in their 50s and they were, shall we say, very much enjoying the free flowing food and drink before the 3pm kickoff. So when it came time to take our seats for the match, I observed them. They went up to the bar and they got plastic pint glasses, cups. [00:06:58] Speaker A: All right, so I think in metric, but I'm guessing by the way you're telling that story that a pint is quite big. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Correct. Correct. It's about half a liter. Oh my God. Yeah. So put into context. So get. So then guess what happens. So they come back to their table with these empty plastic glasses. They fill them to the real top and I mean within millimeters of the rim with wine. So three of them were on white and one was on red. So they basically poured the bottles into the glasses and then the bit that was left in the bottle they poured into their actual glass on the table down that. And then took their pint glasses of wine out to the stadium to take their seats. And then they did exactly the same again at half time. [00:07:43] Speaker A: So that's a, that's a bottle of wine each? Yes, yes. Okay. So when you started talking, I was thinking more about a German friend I've got and she, whenever she goes out to dinner, if there's any wine left at the end of the night, she surreptitiously pours it into her water bottle to drink later. But the point of that is that there's actually wine left over because she's moderate. But this doesn't sound like that at all. [00:08:06] Speaker B: No. So, with your friend, if you were hosting her and she came over, did you offer to fill up her water bottle with water for her when she arrived as a precautionary measure? [00:08:17] Speaker A: No, Lily, I kept my eye on the bottle. That's what I did. But I wish it had occurred to me anyway. So I get the idea of not wasting what's on offer, but I have to say, treating wine like an all you can drink buffet doesn't really sound in the spirit of the event. [00:08:33] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. You know, it was the talk of the ladies loo, and my husband even reported that it was being discussed in the men's toilets as well. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Very friendly place. All right, did you. Did you do the maths on their total consumption? [00:08:48] Speaker B: Of course I did. Of course I did. You know me. So my estimate was that they must have each consumed around 35 units. So that's using English alcohol units. So just to put that in context, that's about two and a half times the UK weekly guideline. So in one day and all by 5pm in there. [00:09:12] Speaker A: All right, so my. My heart is pounding. And the reason for listeners who aren't in the UK, depending on where you are in the world, 35 units is between 28 and 35 standard drinks. So this is enough to get you to hospital, to get your stomach pump, or for you to actually risk your life. So these people, especially if they're in their 50s, must have had iron constitutions, no? [00:09:32] Speaker B: So hold that thought, Felicity, because that's the paradox of this episode, isn't it? Because we're saying that people increasingly value control, but they haven't stopped valuing intoxication as well. [00:09:45] Speaker A: Can I ask, how intoxicated did they get? [00:09:48] Speaker B: Do you know what was really weird is observing them. I would never have known how much they consumed from their general behavior. Obviously, I didn't see them, you know, sort of trotting off after the match, but who knows? [00:10:03] Speaker A: God. And were they eating through all of this? Were they taking advantage of the bottomless buffet as well? Oh, yes. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. They were generous in their serves of that as well, let's say. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Gosh. All right, so let's go back to the question of intoxication and control. So the drinks industry has Always assumed that more equals more pleasure and less equal sacrifice. So if you're not drinking, it's either because something bad happened in the past to make you give up or because you have to get up early the next day. Right, so things like that. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Which to be fair, that sounds all very reasonable. [00:10:36] Speaker A: Well, it turns out this is too simple. So Kalutsi et Al in 2020 looked at young Australians who either drank very lightly or not at all. Now, we're going to talk Australia a lot in this episode. And the reason is simply because the Australian government puts a lot of money into alcohol research. So, okay, there's a lot of very high quality research around. All right, so anyway, so looking at young Australians who are drinking lightly, and they found that this group found pleasure in four things, right? The first is authenticity. And authenticity for them meant feeling like themselves when sober. Right? So they thought being drunk was inauthentic. The second was they valued intimacy, which means developing closer relationships with other sober people and control, meaning the act of making a choice not to drink is part of the pleasure. And the other thing they found is pleasure in what the researchers called vicarious pleasure. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Okay, so by vicarious pleasure there do you mean as in enjoying somebody else's hangover? [00:11:37] Speaker A: Well, the paper wasn't explicit about that, but I got the impression that it might be something like that. But, you know, as in the watching other people drinking and maybe having a good time, but they weren't doing themselves. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Okay, okay, but that's only one study, Felicity. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Well, there's actually a whole bunch of these studies that have emerged in the past four or so years. So one is from Sweden, and I'm really sorry, the authors have Finnish names that are just packed with umlauts and other accents. So I'm not even going to try and pronounce them. But if anyone wants the paper, it's called Planned Pleasures Alcohol Assemblages for Generation Sensible. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Generation Sensible, yeah, which is a new [00:12:14] Speaker A: one, actually, because usually this literature calls Gen Z generation sober. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Okay, so don't keep us hanging. What did our lovely friends whose names you can't pronounce, we would do disservice to find out. [00:12:27] Speaker A: Okay, so they followed Swedish young people from teens into their 20s. Now, the reason that they look at teenagers is because how much you drink as a teenager predicts how much you'll drink later on in life. Right? So, and they. And then they. They watch how they develop over into their 20s. So they interviewed them several times between 2017 and 2022, and they found that their attitudes changed from being very judgmental about drinking in their to accepting light drinking with friends in their early 20s. But critically, moderation had become a social expectation. So drinking too much was again seen as a way of getting in the way of authentic relationships. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Okay, so it's not just about controlling your own drinking then, is what you're saying from this paper. It's about how the group itself behaves overall. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Yes, it's really interesting. They had a lot of quotations from. From the. The different people. And so one girl, for example, described a quote wall that go, people who are sober and people who've drunk too much. And the other thing is, the group will look out for each other, making sure that everybody stays safe. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Okay, so is that pleasure coming from the control itself or is it more from what the control gets you? As in, like the sleep, the sense of security, not having to worry about embarrassing yourself? [00:13:45] Speaker A: Well, I suppose. I guess. Well, first of all, the question is, does it matter? [00:13:50] Speaker B: Okay, well, I think it does, actually. I really do. So, okay, example, so if I skip the chocolate cake because I'm thinking about my weight, I haven't discovered the pleasure then of not eating cake. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Sure. But I think. I think what I'm getting from this literature is what you might have discovered is the pleasure of realizing that you're the kind of person who can skip the chocolate cake, if that makes sense. So what you get is you get a sense of mastery. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Although I'm not sure I'll ever feel better about not eating cake. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Then for you, you mustn't do it. Abstaining from cake is not a pleasure. Don't do it. Eat the cake. Eat the cake. [00:14:27] Speaker B: I will. [00:14:28] Speaker A: But the people in these studies, it's the act of choosing that seems to feel good. It's the feeling of self control that enhances their sense of self. [00:14:37] Speaker B: So what these studies are showing us, then, you're saying is that we can underestimate how good it feels to be the one that decides. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And regardless of why they're doing it, control has become valuable. So the question is, why now? And public health researchers are very interested in this, and they've come up with a range of reasons. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Okay, so can you put this into a lovely, neat framework for those of us that haven't read all the literature? [00:15:04] Speaker A: I'm not very good at. I'm not very good at frameworks. So let's see if I can develop something as we go along. And maybe you can do a framework at the end because you're so good at frameworks, Luli. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Oh, you flatter me. And now there's a challenge. I'll see what I can do. So tell us what the, what the factors for our framework are going to be then. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Okay, so this is something we've covered before in this podcast. The first thing that comes out of the literature very strongly is a desire to avoid risk. So young people across multiple countries see not drinking as a sign of being responsible and productive while helping them avoid a frightening future that might involve not living up to their potential or getting sick. Right. So they're very, very conscious of, of the health costs of alcohol, not just for right now, but also for the future. [00:15:47] Speaker B: So alcohol is competing, therefore, with their future selves, is what is what that's saying. [00:15:53] Speaker A: That is a very elegant way of putting it. And I think you should, you should write in and tell some of these people because they're awful writers. But yes, I think that's a really good way of putting it. So. And then there's the simple cost of living problem and a desire not to spend too much money. So this group generally is also much more frugal than previous generations were at their age. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I, I've, I've held back and I can, I guess the third one, though. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Go on, go. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay, so I think again, because we've talked about this in the past, haven't we, that losing control is more visible. So what used to be like an embarrassing story that might be told about us now has a permanent digital record. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because this comes up a lot, but actually the, the evidence isn't as strong for it as you might think. So for one reason is young people are very, very good at nav. Digital world. And it's part of the group, takes care of each other. Right. So, and the other thing is where, where people are frightened of this is young women are quite frightened of kind of skeezy men taking photographs of them, sexual photographs, which is a bit different from, you know, taking compromising from alcohol photographs. So what, what the third thing is is actually more to do with something we discussed in a previous episode, which is that digital socialising has replaced some of the rituals that alcohol used to have. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, got it. Okay. And so what else have you got for us then? [00:17:14] Speaker A: Well, just two more things. So one is that alcohol doesn't hold the prestige it once did. So once upon a time it was this big marker of da, da. I've arrived as an adult, I can drink and it doesn't play that role anymore. [00:17:26] Speaker B: Okay, cool. And then what's the other thing that you were just mentioning? You said that. [00:17:30] Speaker A: So the other really. Yeah, the other really, really important thing is that cultural norms still shape drinking beliefs, and so this varies enormously. So there's a 2025 paper, and I'm sorry, I should have have written down the authors, but I didn't. But it looked at young people in Denmark, Estonia and Italy. So Estonian young people saw alcohol as something that's going to get in the way of adult responsibility. So much more like the Swedes, young Italians emphasized the drinking together for pleasure and togetherness. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That's very nice. That's very nice. And what about the Danes in the study? [00:18:01] Speaker A: All right, so this is interesting. They're much more traditional drinkers. They behave much more like sort of Gen X did. So young people, which is meaning the under 30s. They really like the loss of control that alcohol can bring. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah, but though, of course, we don't. We have to be careful of sort of national stereotypes when we're looking at data like this. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. But I think it's. The important thing is not to overlook cultural context. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Right, so no fair. [00:18:27] Speaker A: But to your point, Australia is a very interesting counter example. So it's always had a very, very heavy drinking culture. And I can give you some shocking stories from my own youth, if you like. But after the podcast is like, would [00:18:39] Speaker B: you like to share? Yeah, maybe, maybe not. [00:18:42] Speaker A: All right, so. So, but this is changing. So a very significant paper came out last year from Flinders University. Now, they tracked 23,000 young Australians over time, and they found that Gen Z were far more likely to drink very lightly or not at all. And so what the research has suggested is that this cohort could completely reshape Australian drinking culture. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really interesting. So speaking of kind of cultural norms that we were just talking about there, I can absolutely attest to some of the changes that are happening here in the uk. [00:19:14] Speaker A: You've been doing your ethnographic research again, haven't you, Luli? [00:19:17] Speaker B: You know me, dedicated to research. So I've been going to the pub. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Oh, good for you. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:24] Speaker A: No, no stone unturned. [00:19:26] Speaker B: No, always go to the pub. Ethnographic research, as we call it. Anyway, quick tangent. Can I do a quick tangent? So please do, yes. Thank you. Do you remember, Felicity, you must do remember, when a busy bar was like a bun fight trying to get the bar person's attention? [00:19:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's part of the thing. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Waving your notes as we used to have to pay with actual money for a drink in a bar. Well, do you know, in my local pub, which is a very kind of local pub for local people, Normal pub people now form an orderly queue and approach the bar with decorum. What's going on? [00:20:01] Speaker A: Oh, no. The world is coming to an end. Do you know, I've seen older drinkers complaining about this on social media. They get really riled about it. And I've seen conspiracy theories where they blame American tourists for this wretched behavior. So it gets worse. [00:20:14] Speaker B: As if that's not bad enough, having to queue. Having to queue. What I'm really observing, which is people who are clearly much younger than me are often buying a drink just for themselves. So not in a round, even if they're with a group of people. [00:20:32] Speaker A: God, the cheap skates. It's funny, actually. It's funny you say that because the New York Times ran a story, and I think it was last year, about Gen Z's are doing that in American bars. And it's actually breaking the financial model. So. But stars don't like taking credit cards for single transactions. They want you to put it behind the bar and then, you know, reconcile it the night. And so they're all. They're all losing money from this behavior. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Because, well, it fits. It fits in, doesn't it, into this kind of bigger social change that we're seeing. So in the old days, you know, when you and I were in our youth, there was a good day. [00:21:02] Speaker A: The good old days, Luli. [00:21:03] Speaker B: The good old days, yes. There was a sort of social cost of buying only your own drink. So if you skipped out on sort of buying the rounds, it was like you kind of had to explain yourself, didn't you? So, you know, it was okay to say you weren't drinking because I know you were on antibiotics or you weren't very well, but you just couldn't take care of your own needs and kind of ignore the needs of the group that you were with. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very interesting, and there's probably a very good reason for that. So after many thousands of years of drinking alcohol, we've developed this view that one of the worst things you can do is drink by yourself. It's a sign of pathology, actually. Yeah, if not a, you know, a sign that you're a selfish kid. But it's. It's bad. It's a bad thing to do. So we see drinking as a collective activity. So everyone just taking care of themselves kind of violates that. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Okay, so as you were Talking now. I was making some notes. So I think I've got our framework. Okay. [00:22:02] Speaker A: I knew I'd just hand it to you and you'd solve the problem. [00:22:05] Speaker B: I know, I know. I can always solve it. So we can call it. Okay, we can call it Five Shifts Changing Young People's Relationship with Alcohol. [00:22:16] Speaker A: Okay. I love it. I love the framework. I think maybe the title needs a bit of work, but, you know, overall, well done on the fly. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Okay, I think I need your editorial expertise on that one. So, title aside. So the Shifts Changing Younger Drinkers Relationship with alcohol. Then, from what you've been saying and all the lovely reading you've been doing on your long train journeys are first, protecting your future health, career and potential matters more than the pleasure of the moment. Second, you've been talking about economics. So less disposable income means drinking has to justify its cost. The third one we were talking about there was the socializing, particularly the digital connection, kind of replacing some of the occasions and rituals where alcohol once played a central role. Fourth was status you talked about. So drinking is no longer that sort of badge of adulthood or sophistication. And the fifth one you mentioned was social norms. So the rules around drinking are changing from buying rounds to deciding how much you drink or indeed whether you drink at all. [00:23:24] Speaker A: That's really impressive, Lily. And that wasn't all mine. Some of those are your insights. And I think we've actually this thing around social norms. I think we've discovered something very, very interesting here. [00:23:35] Speaker B: Okay, well, that's very generous of you to share it with me. Thank you. So I think this all brings us back rather neatly to Twickenham. Big on my experience there, because if control is so valuable, I guess it's why are people still getting properly drunk? [00:23:55] Speaker A: Okay, so it's younger people that are showing the control available. But go on. Yeah, I can tell you're d to to tell us why are people still getting properly drunk? [00:24:07] Speaker B: Because it's fun, Felicity. [00:24:10] Speaker A: Ah, thanks, Captain Obvious. I thought you had some into special insight there. [00:24:15] Speaker B: No, seriously. No, I know what struck me afterwards. I was genuinely reflecting on it in all seriousness about our loo in the [00:24:25] Speaker A: loop with all the strangers with other [00:24:27] Speaker B: people in the toilets going, did you see them pour it into a pint glass? I know. No, but in all seriousness, reflecting on the behavior that I was observing there, I think one of the things that really struck me about that is that it wasn't spontaneous. It clearly was a plan. They were clearly planned about what they were going to be doing. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Okay, so do you think it was a plan or do you think they were being opportunistic? [00:24:53] Speaker B: It was a military operation, Felicity. They knew they had to go to the bar to get the empty plastic pint glasses. It was a clear plan. They pre ordered the wine, four wine bottles to have on their table so they could fill them up. They knew what they were doing. So I guess my observation, yes, case of one, obviously. But intoxication hasn't disappeared because it's pleasurable. [00:25:17] Speaker A: Well, they obviously, I think, I think by the sound of it, I'm going to accept, I'm going to accept what you say. I will point out that you cannot overlook the lure of free. Right. It's the same dynamic. You see it all. You can eat buffets where people load up on uncomfortable amounts of food. Just they can. So it would be interesting to know if they drank like that when they had to pay for each individual bottle. [00:25:37] Speaker B: But. Yeah, it's, yeah, no, I, I, I know. I, I mean, obviously it's not free because you had to buy the ticket, but I guess psychologically it feels free because it's, you know, it's a sunk cost. You've already paid for the ticket and you're not seeing a price, you know, a price point on a list. But I, you know, the audio. I always get all you can eat buffets. I get so intimidated by those because it's just overwhelming that I end up actually eating not very much. So I. A good cut. I know, I get it. It just intimidates me because there's just so much food. It's overwhelming. I know, I know. They all the, the all you can eat buffet places should have me as a customer because I really don't eat that much when I'm there. Anyway, let's go back, getting us back on track. So back to your point. Maybe that's part of it, but the, the, but these are still adults who know perfectly well that they're going to get hammered if they, they drink that much alcohol or potentially ill, as you were saying earlier. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Do you know, when I was a student, there was this hotel in town, this very posh hotel, and it had a all you could eat dessert buffet. And it was all prepared by chefs and my friends. And I went one night and I filled up so much that when I walked across this very posh floor, I had chocolate strawberries rolling behind me. I never recovered from that. I wanted, it was a great buffet. I want to go back to the point about drinking alone versus drinking in a group because this is really interesting. So the fact that they were all doing it probably gave each member permission to drink a lot, right? [00:27:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Because, you know, they. They probably wouldn't have done it if you. Like, if half of them were sitting there sober, they wouldn't have done it, I'm guessing. And. And getting wasted might even have been part of their bonding ritual. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think they would have thought of it that way? [00:27:20] Speaker A: Oh, probably not. But there is a lot of evidence from anthropology that that's how humans have always drunk. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Okay, so every day's a school day, Felicity, learning from anthropology and you and our history corresp. So tell me what the anthropology says about this. Cause I'm really interested in what you just said there. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Okay, so for any listeners who haven't read the book Drunk by Edward Slingerland, I highly recommend it. It's not just a very entertaining read, which it is, but it's very insightful about drinking and why we do it. So last year, or was it the year before, I interviewed him for my Drinks Insider podcast, and he said people who drink together like each other more. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Okay, so first, good. Slipped in promo for your other podcast there. Did people notice that? Drinks Insider by Felicity Carter. Very subtle and well done. Had I not just highlighted it, but what he's talking about there, when people who drink together like each other more basically. Is that kind of the beer goggles effect? [00:28:21] Speaker A: Yes, but it's also what he called a costly display, because if you get wasted, you lose control of yourself and you become very vulnerable to others, which was very dangerous back in. In our prehistory. So getting. Getting that drunk actually demonstrates trust. And so what happened is we developed all these rituals around drinking to help people regulate the pace of drinking. And one of the interesting things is people tend to drink about the same amount as one another at the same time. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Because if you sit there basically drinking faster than everyone else, you have to sort of sit with an empty glass until the majority catch up with you. So you're sort of group pacing. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting. And we've even got texts about texts about this from the ancient world, from Greece. So there's a fragment from a comic playwright called Eubulus, ubulus, from the 4th century BC, where Dionysus himself, you know, the God of wine, explains the rules of the symposium or the drinking party. So they had these craters, these big bowls that were mixed wine and water. And it says, the first one is for health, the second one is for love. And pleasure. The third one is for sleep. And then. Then the wise guests go home. [00:29:30] Speaker B: And the not so wise guests. [00:29:33] Speaker A: The fourth bowl belongs to hubris, the fifth to shouting, the sixth to revelry, and the seventh to black eyes. [00:29:40] Speaker B: Seriously, there's a drinking bowl dedicated specifically to black eyes? [00:29:47] Speaker A: Yes. And the eighth one's the summons, which I guess is the police come round. The ninth to bile, which I guess is throwing up. And the 10th is madness and throwing the furniture. [00:29:57] Speaker B: It sounds like a really. Just as you're saying all of those, it sounds like a remarkably like a kind of office Christmas party. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Did any of your Twickenham people get up and throw the chairs at all? [00:30:10] Speaker B: No. No, I didn't see any signs of black eyes, summons, bile or madness, including furniture thrown away. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Maybe that was. Maybe that was later in the evening. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:20] Speaker A: Anyway, the interesting thing about these drinking parties, it was the whole who decided how strong the wine should be and how many bowls people had to drink. So this was pleasure, but it was very bonded by rules. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that reminds me that. So that. Do you remember the Isabel now? Again, I mispronounce her name. Schmiggin, I think, is how you pronounce her surname. [00:30:42] Speaker A: Schmegan. Let's call her that. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Schmegan. Yeah. Apologies. Yeah, apologies. You know, we're always hopeless at this. We'll have to get better at it. Felicity. But she did you remember she talked about calculated hedonism? I think it was in her 2008 study of young adults in the UK, and she said that calling their drinking behavior binge drinking actually obscured how much planning and management went into these occasions of drinking excessively together. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Yes. And of course, 2008 was the binge Britain panic. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And they found these young people weren't drinking chaotically, which is sort of how. It's how we feel about it, particularly when it's termed binge drinking. So they were pursuing in terms of intoxication within sort of self imposed rules. So when, where, how much to spend, how everyone gets home. And it's what Fiona Misham calls the kind of controlled loss of control. [00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that was coming out in the Swedish paper as well. Although they were drinking, you know, they were being quite abstemious, but it was still controlled by the group. And there is evidence of this from both the US and Australia as well, where researchers have found that universities to students drink together as a form of social bonding. Yeah. And what's interesting is some of that research suggests they don't actually intend to get Staggeringly drunk. It's that as the night goes on, they kind of overshoot. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Yeah. But they're still planning to drink a fair bit. So, you know, if you decide, I don't know, on a Tuesday, that Saturday is the big one and you plan around your Sunday around that. So the letting go on Saturday is the sort of decision just as the. Our friends at Twickenham had probably, you know, thought about taxi money and Uber apps on their phone and, you know, or the ambulance. [00:32:33] Speaker A: That's right. Anyway, so. So yes, they've. They've put the hangover in the diary. But. But here's what I find. Okay, so here's what's really interesting is Schmiggins, young adults in 28,008 were aged 18 to 25. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [00:32:47] Speaker A: Now this group is now in their mid-30s to early 40s. And so this is the same generation. Now telling recent research is that they moderate. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but I guess that's part of the sort of life stage effect, isn't it? Because it's much easier to. To go out and binge or to go out and drink or whatever when you don't have, you know, particularly young kids at home. So probably all generations moderated that or changed their behavior during their life stages. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yes, I certainly have. I definitely have. Without giving away too much, I'm guessing you did too. [00:33:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Shall we say, should we move on? But. But going back to your point about communal drinking, I think that's really interesting and we can still see that in action today, can't we? So I'm thinking places like the Races are notorious as a place for. For drinking as part of the planned behavior there. [00:33:45] Speaker A: That's right. Then we've got Oktoberfest in Germany, which is a massive drinking festival. And few months we have Carnival, which is another license loss of control before the abstemiousness of Lent. [00:33:56] Speaker B: So it's like. It's like the Catholic Church invented Dry January, then. [00:34:02] Speaker A: That is another excellent observation. Lily, you are on fire. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. And it's a perfect bridge, as if I planned it into my next hypothesis. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Does it have a framework? [00:34:15] Speaker B: It does. Of course it does. So I think drinking is becoming more. More polarized. So more occasions with nothing and fewer occasions where people really go for it. But those occasions still exist. [00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think this is one of the most interesting phenomena of the moment, and I think it's one that a lot of the alcohol industries actually fail to see. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:39] Speaker A: But we're seeing this internationally, that drinking among many groups of young People is emerging as all or nothing. [00:34:46] Speaker B: And of course I have a theory about what's going on. [00:34:48] Speaker A: On. You've done so well so far, I can't wait to hear it. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Thank you. So let's just establish the situation, shall we? So a UCL study of nearly 10,000 UK adults found increases in reported regular binge drinking, or excessive drinking, should we call it, amongst Gen Z. Now, IWSR says that Gen Z drinking habits are no longer significantly different from those of other generations. So just come to some of the stuff you've been talking about. [00:35:23] Speaker A: All right. So, you know, I'm very skeptical about this IWS data. [00:35:26] Speaker B: Well, because I used to work that. [00:35:29] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. Because it's so at odds with numerous other studies I've read, especially, especially the public health studies that I'm reading. So isn't it true that the data just shows that the Gen Z survey said they'd had alcohol in the previous six months? I mean, what does it say about consumption frequency or volume? [00:35:46] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's a fair point to bring up. Up. I will just say that whenever we're looking at research, of course, we need to look at the motivations of the people who are conducting that research. So in IWSR's case, their motivation is to report back to the drinks industry what is happening. Whether that's up, down or changes, I would say, in the international public health research, you know, there is a, shall we say, a motivation potentially to find that younger drinkers in the case that we're talking about, are not necessarily drinking as much as they did. So I suppose there's always that caution, isn't there, when we're talking about data and the motivations. But back to iwsr, so you were talking about. It just means they've participated in the last six months. Yes, but that's just one measure. It's not the whole survey. They also asked what people drink now, how often, where they drink and whether they're choosing to drink more or taking breaks. So Gen Z drinkers were more likely than any other age group to say they were actively choosing also to drink more, but they were also the group most likely to take periods off alcohol and to be thinking about moderation. So it's really contradictory. So moderation, I guess what I'm saying, doesn't necessarily mean drinking a little less every time. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that's. I think that's what we're establishing here, that there's something, there's something about drinking patterns which is changing. I want to say Something about the public health data which is, they're very gleeful about this because they see this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to get legislation in really, really fast. So that, because they think that this goes in waves and the group behind Gen Z is actually going to be quite heavy drinkers. It's very interesting, but yes, so I think what we're agreeing is that it doesn't mean that they're drinking the same quantities as older generations. So they don't drink like young people did 20 years ago, for example. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I guess it does challenge the idea, doesn't it, that Gen Z are all committed to drinking less so you can take breaks but you can still want a big night out when you do want to drink. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So, so my going back to the public health data, my understanding from, from what I'm reading is that we're seeing more heterogeneous behavior within Gen Z. So we've got this binge drinking which has emerged relative is interesting and then we've got this moderate drinking but then we have a very unusual and new cohort which is Gen Z who don't drink under any circumstances. [00:38:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm going to come back to this question on, on how much people are drinking on any given occasion. But what I want to know more about is this group that don't drink at all. So amongst my network of homegrown Gen zers, there are several people in that group who don't drink alcohol at all. But back to Felicity, what evidence were you thinking about there? [00:38:57] Speaker A: Okay, so this varies from country to country. Right, so we've already established in Denmark they, they have a very different attitude towards alcohol and Italians are moderate anyway. Right. So but, but take Australia which is much more like the uk. Right. So Australia's typically drink at a level that, you know, would just have our American friends reeling in horror. [00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Particularly when it comes to drinking in the workplace. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I, I grew up in a really, in an alcohol soaked culture so, so I'll go back to this study by Flinders University because it's such a, it's such a huge number that they studied. So they watched, they watched this. [00:39:32] Speaker B: That's called a large sample size, Felicity. [00:39:34] Speaker A: A large sample size. That's right. I think it's called the TUDOR study as well because they, they watched these 23,000 over two decades and what they concluded was, quote, young Australians are turning away from alcohol at unprecedented rates. The report said, quote, Gen z are nearly 20 times more likely to choose not to drink alcohol, but compared to baby boomers, even after adjusting for sociodemographic factors, and that when they do drink, they consume significantly less alcohol per occasion than older drinkers. [00:40:03] Speaker B: So where does binge drinking fit into this then? Or excess drinking? I don't like this phrase binge. Let's call it excess drinking. [00:40:11] Speaker A: All right, let's call it. It's probably wise. Okay, so in Australia, it's millennials and Gen X's who are doing the excess drinking. Now, first of all, these are obviously population level numbers and we also have to account for the fact that the demogr has changed. Right, so we've got more people from cultures that don't drink in that as well. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:40:29] Speaker A: And my Gen Z niece has certainly told me stories of people at her university who were drinking to excess. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But one of another one actually of my homegrown Gen Z lot told me last week that in her case it's either zero or high alcohol. So what was I found really fascinating is she said that again, quoting her that there isn't really, really a point or an occasion for something that's sort of in the middle, I. E. Mid strength. So she described mid strength in her view as a waste of time. It needs to be all or nothing. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Okay, so, so we, we're seeing this sort of bifurcation, which is really interesting. By the way, did you get her sign off before you quoted her on this podcast? [00:41:13] Speaker B: No, and that's why I didn't quote her name or my relationship with her. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Well, you did you. Oh, yeah, okay. [00:41:20] Speaker B: It was. No, I didn't. I just said one of. And there are many in my network as you know of, not only my kids, nieces, nephews and their friends and godchildren. So it could have been any of them. Anyway, moving on, because A Question of Drinks is an ethical podcast. But, but what's interesting here is the, the shape of drinking. So what we're basically saying is the old pattern was a couple of drinks here and there, a glass of wine with dinner, couple of pints after work, a bit more at the weekend. [00:41:47] Speaker A: So the steady drip, you might say. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what I think we're, we're describing here is an, is an immers emerging pattern that looks more like kind of 0, perhaps 1, 0, and then high excess, potentially. So moderation, I think, is making drinking patterns much more spiky. So if control is valuable, you kind of protect the weekdays, but if pleasure still matters, and we're kind of seeing that. And my Twickenham experience would attest to that. You save it for the occasions that you think are worth it. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Well, maybe. I mean, it depends on who's doing it. So my question would be, are seeing the same people moderating during the week and drinking heavily on weekends? So is your Twickenham group being sort of virtuous during the week and then just going to the races, or are we seeing a group that doesn't drink at all and then another group that intentionally drinks more heavily? [00:42:42] Speaker B: Okay, so. Good question. Well, yeah, of the people who drink, my hypothesis, based on the data that I see, is that we have sort of situated what I call situational moderation. So pleasure in control, as you were talking about at the start of this episode, narrower repertoires, but also intentional intoxication or excess. So nobody has shown they add up to this kind of polarized pattern necessarily. But I think we can deduce it from what we can see in data from many markets. So for that we need to obviously ask people how often they drink and how much per occasion over time and over generations. Like the Flinders study that you were talking about. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Well, I'm wondering, and especially with some of the, you know, commercial data I'm seeing if people aren't asking the right questions potentially, you know. Yeah, maybe. Maybe drinking patterns have changed. Okay, so if I can. We don't know this, this is a hypothesis, but if I can sum up where we seem to be heading, we might be witnessing new patterns of drinking where we see abstinence punctuated by drinking, whether that's moderate drinking or binge drinking. Excess drinking. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Excess drinking. Yeah, yeah. In which case what we're seeing is the disappearance, effectively then we could conclude, of that kind of middle. So what I'm thinking here is the habitual sort of unremarkable drinking that a lot of our industry's volume has actually been built on. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting. Again, I don't have data for this, but I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence over the last couple of years about the disappearance of the middle. And of course, it's that stem steady drip. That's what, you know, contributes to the health of the alcohol industry. [00:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if you're a brand that lives in that kind of middle, sort of everyday middle, should you be worried then? Yeah. Well, how about you? [00:44:39] Speaker A: You promised that you'd come back to [00:44:40] Speaker B: Gen Z. Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. Sorry. Yes, I got. I got us distracted, didn't I? So let's just go back to IWSR's Bev. Track 2026 data. So they measure consumers across the 15 kind of biggest alcohol consumption markets in the world and 3/4 of legal drinking age. Gen Z consumers drink alcohol. So to your point earlier, well made. That means just consuming alcohol at least once in the last six months. But that's the same as amongst effectively the same rate of or number of proportion of consumers as all adults and that. But what's the interesting bit, Felicity, is that's unique up from 2/3 of gen Z consuming alcohol at least once every six months in 2023. So it's on the. Right. I've gone round in a circle there. But effectively what I'm trying to say is participation rates amongst Gen Z look to be increasing. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Yeah, and just on the age question, it's important to say that Gen Z is quite a big spread of ages. Right. The first cohort was born in 1997, but the younger of them are still only 14. Right. So you've got people who are in their late 20s, people who are just entering legal drinking age. So these drinking patterns might change as people get older. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And we should just clarify that IWSR are only talking to Gen Z of legal drinking age in each of the markets here. So we should just clarify that. Another interesting thing that they report, IWSL report is that the number of, of drinks categories consumed per occasion by again by Gen Z, by younger legal drinking age has dropped from 2.8 to 1.8. Absolute numbers don't matter. But the pattern is that it is fewer categories being consumed per occasion. [00:46:35] Speaker A: Okay, so I think I understand that. So another thing which I understood is that the amount of alcohol consumed has fallen overall, the repertoire has widened. So I accept what you're saying that on a particular occasion they might be consuming fewer categories. But what I understand that's another thing that's changed is people who once would have identified as I'm a beer drinker are now sometimes drinking beer, sometimes RTD's, sometimes cocktails. So the, the self identification of I'm a cocktail drinker, that that's kind of fallen away. [00:47:06] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's very true. So it's within occasion, the categories is narrow. Between or across occasions, the categories are broader. So absolutely. To, to your point, can I just comment on another one of my bugbears? [00:47:24] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Good. [00:47:25] Speaker A: You're on fire today, Lily. I think you should. [00:47:28] Speaker B: And another thing, which is the way our drinks industry loves to put people into boxes. So we talk about drinkers, moderators and, and no and lows and abstainers as if they're distinct people. [00:47:43] Speaker A: So angry of Twickenham is on a rant here, but you're right. So the same person can be an abstainer on Monday, a moderator on Wednesday, a drinker on Friday, and an absolute enthusiast at a wedding. [00:47:55] Speaker B: I may recognize that person, Felicity, given that my son got married a couple [00:47:59] Speaker A: of weeks ago and you've done the field work. So then there's history there. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Exactly. I was waiting for more history. Are you going to Enlightenment? Enlighten us. Correspondence. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Okay, so. So this is interesting. So. So being an abstainer used to be a very important identity. Right? So the traditional story is that the word teetotal comes from Preston, the 1830s. There was a temperance campaigner with a stammer, poor guy, Dickie Turner, who. Who said only. And I. I won't mock him, but he said total abstinence. He wanted total abstinence, but he started when he said it. So extra T's. So. So this is where teetotal. And. And so, so people would sign up for the pledge and then they would wear a blue ribbon. Right. They would make it part of their identity. Identity. [00:48:39] Speaker B: So, so not drinking was a badge. Literally a badge. [00:48:45] Speaker A: That's right. And. And it made you part of an entire community. You went and joined, you know, other people. [00:48:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And doesn't the industries, our industries, kind of segmentation still carry that idea that if you're a moderator, it's a certain type of person, But. But moderation is something you do, not something you are. Are. [00:49:05] Speaker A: I would say, okay, so if I. If I follow through the implications of that. So people should stop thinking about the consumer as a moderator and start to think about the occasions where they're moderating. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because the same consumer can pay very differently depending on the occasion, which means the occasion may be becoming more important than the consumer kind of segmentation category we put them in. So. So there's some really interesting evidence about this and those. And how those occasions changing. So NIQ reported from their data across Europe, Middle east and Africa that around a third of consumers say they're drinking less out of home against just, you know, just under 10% saying they're drinking more out of home. So there's like a 20% delta there. [00:49:55] Speaker A: I actually read a really interesting essay recently that said one of the reasons that more people are staying home and drinking isn't just because of COVID reshaping norms, but because people have fewer kids or they have no kids. So when you have kids, you need to get out you need a babysitter to come and relieve you and out you go. And that's where people used to go out. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And speaking as a parent, I will concede on the babysitting point, though I will add that now, obviously, because our kids are grown up and have their own lives, we are footloose and fancy free, so we can go out whenever we want. [00:50:26] Speaker A: You got the habit. All right. So actually, you know, we should put an episode about in home drinking on the calendar, Lulu, because that's also a very interesting modern thing phenomenon. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Done. Right. Yeah, that sounds very good. But back in this episode, niq's data also says that people are drinking less because it's about this better version of yourself. So they're supporting what you said at the beginning, Felicity. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah, so it's the optimized self again. But I bet they haven't asked this question. But it would be really interesting to know if those people are also getting a sense of pleasure out of the sense of mastery and self control. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Control. Yeah, because there's. There's other contradictions, aren't there? Because also in the NIQ data, we see that 2/3 of consumers are also saying drinking and dining out matters just as much to their social lives as it did a year ago. So that seems to kind of counter some of this. [00:51:19] Speaker A: So it's not that the desire to socialize has disappeared. [00:51:23] Speaker B: No, exactly. I think. I think what we're trying to conclude in a very roundabout way is that what's changing is alcohol's role within that socializing. Yes. [00:51:33] Speaker A: And again, going back to the public health data, you see this with the research on young people. So the old model was that alcohol was the occasion. Right. So it was, let's go to the pub, let's, let's drink, let's plan to drink. And it was the occasion that created the connection. Right. So the drink was the reason for the whole get together. [00:51:52] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And what we're seeing now, we could say is sort of like a new noddle. Noddle? No, model. Let's try that one again. Excuse me. That's a new word there. Um, so a social need creates the occasion, and the alcohol had to earn its role in it. Um, so let's catch up, you know, being the sort of the. The social need there. And then what we're seeing now is do I want an alcoholic drink to go with that occasion or not? So it's a different approach. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the implications of this are very interesting. I mean, though nobody ever went to a wedding for the Free wine. That's fine for sure. [00:52:34] Speaker B: Unless it was my son's wedding. Felicity. Because I chose the wine. So people. Well, they didn't come just for the wine, but let's say they. Hopefully they enjoyed it. Which brings us to the commercial question. If alcohol has to earn its place in the occasion, which drinks are actually going to win? Felicity? [00:52:52] Speaker A: Oh, I. I wouldn't possibly dare answer that question up against the alcohol market expert, Lily. I mean, just give me the answer. [00:53:00] Speaker B: All right, so, okay, well, I reckon my winners would be champagne, sparkling cocktails, premium spirits. So basically the things that make the night feel like a night. So if people are drinking less often, the occasions they do choose to drink on have to feel more worth it. [00:53:20] Speaker A: That sounds expensive. [00:53:22] Speaker B: It's kind of, yes. And I suppose it's sort of meant to, because sometimes, sometimes the drink is the reason to sort of abandon the normal control. And that includes spending. [00:53:33] Speaker A: Yeah, like the people who've just had a bottomless brunch at Twickenham. [00:53:36] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I was there for a very good reason, because it was my birthday. So I guess that's the point, isn't it? [00:53:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so. So I think, you know, if. If drinking has to become more special, then. And actually, I've heard, I've heard anecdotally this, this year from Smelliers, that people are now choosing one or two great glasses of wine rather than ordering a bottle. So you could be right. But at the other end, we've also got the rise of cheap RTDs, because when money is tight, people want to know an amount of alcohol at a known price. [00:54:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So in the new the UK numbers say people are definitely drinking less. So if we look at the grocer's latest list of Britain's 100 biggest alcohol brands, that's biggest by total volume. Around two thirds of those top 100 brands sold less volume volume than they did a year ago, with those combined losses equating to just shy of £100 million. But RTD cocktails grew within that pattern of overall declining from the top 100 brands. [00:54:42] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that. I think that speaks to your hypothesis that the. The sort of. The casual middle, this sort of casual, thoughtless middle is disappearing. And of course, we also have the cost of living crisis. So look at buzz balls, the cheap RTDs, which are just flying off the shelf now. They're about 15% alcohol by volume. So this is a big hit of alcohol for not very much money. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And Moth would be another example. Moth canned cocktails here in the UK sort of proper bar quality cocktails. But that's not control, Felicity. I guess that's the sort of special serve without the bartender or, or the category entry points. They've got it in there into a big. So, So I guess what people are looking for value but that doesn't always mean a low price point, but they're also looking for this reason and into the occasion. [00:55:35] Speaker A: Well, I think we're talking about two groups, aren't we? We're talking about the, you know, drinking less but when they do drink, want to make it count and then we've got the other, you know, I'm going out to get intoxicated and I need to do it as cheaply as possible, which is where the buzz balls come here into it. Yeah. You know, so we got drink less but make it count. [00:55:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's the kind of indulgence, isn't there? So it's, it's, it can be an indulgence even if it's, as you were saying, the sort of single glass rather than the bottle when you're in a higher end restaurant. [00:56:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it's rationed indulgence. So you know, if you're just ordering one glass or two glasses, you've already decided that that's going to be your limit. So that's the kind of control I'm talking about. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Okay, so then what about, what's your view on what Diageo are doing at the moment then? [00:56:24] Speaker A: Oh, now this is a very interesting question. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in light of all the things we've talked about. So Diageo are betting on a completely different strategy. They're going hard for mid strength, so they've just launched 20% alcohol by volume versions of Gordon Smirnoff and Captain Morgan, I think in about 250 Tesco Strength stores. So they can't legally call them gin, vodka or rum. They're calling them spirits drink and they're spirit drinks and they're putting them in teal packaging. [00:56:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So if we listen to my homegrown Gen Z who shall remain nameless, describing mid strength as a waste of time, you know, is that a good strategy that Diageo are doing? [00:57:06] Speaker A: Well, isn't it interesting because everything that we've talked about in this suggests that your Gen Zs are actually spotting something that's real. This kind of, you know, moderation versus high intoxication and not that much in between the, the disappearance the middle. But I would say, you know, Diageo is probably aiming at people like me who still drink and who still want the pleasure. But I mean, I would definitely go for a lower alcohol gin and tonic if it doesn't compromise the taste. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's always the point, isn't it? And you know, we could have a long rant about wine when it comes to no low and mid strength, but maybe we'll save that one for another day. Um, so potentially I'll concede that mid strength isn't necessarily the problem, although I think, I still think there's something in that. But it's control, pressure, pleasure with a brand you already trust effectively is what you're saying when they're going for the 20 ABV spirits type style brands. So the problem is the drink with no reason to exist. I still think there's something in the. That. [00:58:11] Speaker A: Oh, no, no, no. I think you're right and I think, you know, we will leave the lower no conversation another time. But I will say the lower no market by and large has stalled. And I think one of the reasons is because it's, you know, this bifurcation of the market we're talking about, which is if you are going to drink, you want the real thing, it's not that you want to. You, you're not drinking rather than drinking a substitute. So. So I, I actually agree with you. I think the signs are pointing towards the habitual middle disappearing. That was the drink you didn't think about very much. Right. You just drank whatever wine was in the fridge. So it wasn't special enough to be indulgent and it wasn't distinctive enough to, you know, make the night feel worth it. It was just what was there. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So the kind of like the perfectly fine bottle that you can't really remember the name of. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe perfectly fine is the most dangerous place to be right now. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I completely agree with you. Which is where wine, I think has its chance, though. I think there is opportunity. Always try to be optimistic because wine can play both sides of this. So, you know, if we think about champagne is the ultimate kind of permission to indulge. But wine, wine is also kind of slow and it goes with food and it's made for sharing. We were talking about this sociability earlier. [00:59:29] Speaker A: So I completely agree with you about champagne. Completely. And I think it's because, you know, it does fit the indulgence. But the important thing is to go back to what control means in the sense of the research, which is it's the pleasure of control was the mastery of saying no or altogether not of sipping something slowly. [00:59:49] Speaker B: Fair. But the Wine market Council research that you were talking about earlier, their new communication study found wine is perceived positively across multiple generations, including Gen Z. Yeah. [01:00:03] Speaker A: And I mean Institute of California did, did some extensive research that found the same thing. But the question is when do younger consumers actually engage with it? [01:00:12] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is, I would say more often when wine dares to break its own rules. So wine cocktails, wine with non alcoholic mixers, frozen wine slushies, etc. Etc. So one respondent in the Wine Market Council study said, I quote, I wish they would appeal to my sense of humor more often. And I've got a big bugbear about humor and the fact that we, we're, we seem afraid of using humor, delicate and appropriate when we're communicating about wine. [01:00:46] Speaker A: Okay, so you know the cynic in me is going to answer by saying, so what you're saying is they like wine when it doesn't behave like wine. [01:00:53] Speaker B: Not so fast Ms. Cynic. So wine has ritual going for it. So Richard Shotten, who's one of the sort of behavioral economists wrote about this in Marketing Week. So he was drawing on Michael Norton's research at Harvard, basically saying that rituals make things more enjoyable. So like the Guinness splitting the G or even the Guinness poor or even things like, you know, when we're twisting apart an Oreo. [01:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. And opening a bottle is a ritual. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And when consumers control that ritual, actually what we find is that reward center, that reward pleasure goes up. But. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Okay, so here comes the but. What's the but when it comes to wine? [01:01:38] Speaker B: Okay, okay, so wine is built around a meal, a bottle, provenance. Now look at the growth occasions. It's the five o', clock, the one glass. So has wine, has it got the right product or the right way of serving but the, the wrong kind of occasion architecture in terms of how we're thinking about the opportunities for wine? [01:02:02] Speaker A: Yes. I will point out that the biggest aperitivo drink in the world has wine in it. The Aperol spritz is Prosecco. [01:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but, but who gets the credit? It's not the Prosecco is it? It's the, the lovely orange stuff that goes into it. So wine still markets, I think, I know I've said this before, provenance rather than the benefits. So we don't tell people why it's perfect for Wednesday evening at 6:00'. Clock. [01:02:27] Speaker A: Okay, so what's the challenge challenge in this? [01:02:30] Speaker B: Okay, so that I, I guess it would be stop asking how do we get people to drink more wine and start asking, what role can wine earn in this occasion, which I believe I [01:02:43] Speaker A: have heard you say before, Lily. [01:02:44] Speaker B: Maybe quite a few times. [01:02:45] Speaker A: A few times. Okay, so I think we need to. I think we need to do some summaries because I think we've. We've actually covered a huge amount in this podcast. [01:02:52] Speaker B: Yes. So summarizing. I think we've misunderstood what people are moderating. So it's not necessarily alcohol itself, it's the occasions, the quantities, the consequences. So people are deciding when drinking is worth it and when, if they want to, they'll indulge or drink to excess. Planned. [01:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I mostly agree with that, but I do want to point out there's another phenomenon happening as well. So there's a growing cohort, particularly among Gen Z, who are shunning out alcohol itself and partly because it gives them a self mastery. Right. Yeah. And I think that this is getting mixed up with the wider moderation trend. [01:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And as drinking becomes more planned, the type of drink matters more. I suppose. So. You and I have seen many a LinkedIn post asking how do we get people to drink more wine? So I think the better question now is to make the drink wine. What, Whatever it is worth choosing. [01:03:52] Speaker A: Yes. Or serve it at a bottomless brunch at Twickenham. You know, make sure there's pint glasses available. That's the other thing. [01:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So if you've got your own Twickenham story or you think one of us is right and the other is wrong, do get in touch with us at a question of drinksmail.com where Luly will read it. I will. And I will see you next time For Felicity, you've been listening to A Question of Drinks, the podcast that explores why we drink, what we do, and [01:04:27] Speaker A: we're here to answer your questions. If you want to know more about anything drinks, from the marketing history to the economic underpinnings to why this drink is popular and not that one. [01:04:37] Speaker B: Send us an email, send us any questions you'd like us to discuss. And quite frankly, the more random niche, the better. And we'll have a go at answering them. We can be reached on a questionofdrinksmail.com that's a question of drinks, all one wordmail.com and we would hugely appreciate you [01:04:57] Speaker A: reviewing and rating this podcast before you go. Five stars are much appreciated.